Notable curmudgeon John Dvorak
raised hackles last month when he suggested that an Intel-powered Apple would dump OS X and switch to Windows. Turns out he may have been right -- sort of. Word is out now that Apple has joined BAPco, an industry group that does one thing and one thing only: create benchmarks for testing the performance of Windows-based PCs. The move comes on top of rumors that Apple will include
VMWare-style virtualization capabilities in the next version of OS X, which could enable the Mac OS to run Windows apps without requiring a third-party emulator or
a reboot. While those rumors have yet to be confirmed, it does seem possible that Apple is indeed working on a way for OS X users to run Windows apps, and wants to use BAPco's tools to benchmark the Windows-on-OS X performance (though the tools are said not to work all that well in virtual environments). Either that or they just want to confirm the rumors that the MacBook Pro is the fastest Windows laptop out there.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Todd @ Mar 29th 2006 9:53AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Now why would Apple want to run that SHITTY OS??
(choke on that guys)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Hans @ Mar 29th 2006 9:55AM
could be that they just wanna benchmark how well OS X performs as compared to Windows running on the same chip.
but if OS X can run window programs natively, would it be as vulnerable as windows then?
Dennis @ Mar 29th 2006 10:03AM
Someone didn't read the article very carefully.... TODD.
mypackage @ Mar 29th 2006 10:04AM
One theory is that they are building Windows app compatibility into OS X 10.5
http://www.osopinion.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4759&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
Jon H @ Mar 29th 2006 10:04AM
I'd have to guess they're working with BAPCo to come up with a cross-platform benchmark, so that OSX on Intel can be compared with Windows on Intel.
straight eight @ Mar 29th 2006 10:05AM
Only a matter of time I suppose! Steve Jobs may have the apple, but Bill Gates has the entire orchard! :D
Red @ Mar 29th 2006 10:07AM
This is just Apple Computer's move to increase market share. With Apple's decission to move to
Intel chip was to give consumers the chance to better compare Macs to PCs. Now Apple will use the same benchmarking that is used on PCs to demonstate better to consumers Macs performance cared to PCs. Thus allowing consumer to make an easier comparison between to two platforms.
Gil @ Mar 29th 2006 10:09AM
Todd: Get the iPod out of your ass and read the damn article.
It may come as a surprise to average apple users but computers do more than word processing and graphical editing. For these tasks you currently need a windows OS so are you really that surprised Apple is trying to make their OS compatible with Windows apps? Furthermore are you that surprised people run Windows on their Apple branded PC?
Get a brain you flaming fanboys!
Joshua Stein @ Mar 29th 2006 10:26AM
This would be epic, since it would make switching from Windows to Mac even easier (and to be honest, I need to be able to run some Windows apps in my daily life, and was getting set to by a cheap PC to do so).
What I want to know is: What is the latest on getting OSX to run on (non-Apple) Intel machines? I never understood the appeal of the "Run Windows on a Mac" contest, because Apple hardware is expensive and not that good, and Windows just plain sucks. Two things I would not really want to put together. Now, put OSX on some nice AMD architechture, and I would be a happy camper.
Todd @ Mar 29th 2006 10:27AM
Gee a smart ass comment goes righ over some people's heads, doesn't it.
Anyway,
Viramor @ Mar 29th 2006 10:33AM
Apple hardware is expensive and not that good? Try comparing the macbook pro to others in the market, you may be suprized...
Mat @ Mar 29th 2006 10:36AM
I seem to remember hearing something about a development tool (some time ago now) called YellowPage (I think), whereby a developer using this programme could literally tick a box and make whatever they were working on work on both OS X and Windows. This new development could mean that windows applications could be made native to OS X 10.5, thus meaning that you could have all the spoils and eye candy of OS X and still be able to natively run Windows applications (and games i presume). This could also tie in with rumors of a gaming orientated Mac with SLI blah blah blah etc.
Does it sound right to anyone else, or did i just dream that up? Answers on a postcard to the usual address please...
Will @ Mar 29th 2006 10:41AM
There is no reason for Apple to dump OS X. I know Apple is a "hardware company" but people are not buying new Macs because of the box it comes in. The way Apple differentiates itself from a PC is through it's OS. You may not like OS X, but you can't argue with the fact that there are a lot fewer viruses and no spayware for the Mac at the moment, which is a big reason why people switch.
GadgetGav @ Mar 29th 2006 10:44AM
@ Viramor ; couldn't agree more..! I'm just spec'ing a laptop and it's either the MacBook Pro 2GHz or the Dell M65. Equivalently spec'd (in hardware) they are within $70 of each other and that's easily accounted for by the extra softwear on the Mac.
Now, if I could know in advance that I could run Solidworks in XP reliably on the Mac, it would be a done deal... Trouble is, it's an expensive experiment to carry out!
Pete @ Mar 29th 2006 10:45AM
Apple should just come out with a Windows line of PC's and market them along side the OS X version. Guess which line would generate more sales and shareholder revenue? Of course it would be Windows. Give people a choice and I might even buy one!
Bj? @ Mar 29th 2006 10:46AM
OK, enough yelling, on both sides, get yourself together, let's talk seriously:
There's absolutely no reason for Apple to dump OS X in favor for Vista. Tiger is a year old and has features Microsoft finds hard to implement in the next release that's due to hit the shelves by early 2007. This is not about market share, it's about innovation. And Apple leads in this field by a great margin.
Next stop is security. It's major selling point for OS X. No viruses, a stable and solid OS - that's OS X, but not Windows.
What about the iLife suite? They won't sell these great programs to Microsoft, just so that they can be bundled with a Mac running Windows. Ever thought of that?
OS X comes (and came for years) with X11, a window-based environment that can run Linux applications - no one ever screamed 'Oh, they stop developing OS X and turn to Linux'.
The same thing will happen here (IMHO): I expect as one of the key features for Leopard the ability to run Windows applications in some sort of virtual environment within OS X, assured by Intel Chips that these apps run at near native speed.
Such an implementation could make OS X and Apple a killer on the computer market - who wants to have a computer that can only run 1 OS, when you can have a Mac for almost the same amount of money that can run 3 OS? Even the pieces of Windows software people need for everyday work?
A decision like this would position Apple as a leader in computer innovation. And this is what counts at Cupertino.
Chris @ Mar 29th 2006 10:47AM
I think everyone has this wrong. If you read about the rumored Red Box project, it says that the idea is to run Windows programs directly in OS X without having to install Windows. This is much harder to do than virtualization but it's much better. It's similar to Darwine in concept.
See Darwine in action:
http://darwine.opendarwin.org/images/CaptureWine.gif
Problem with Darwine is that because of the difficulty of the task, not many windows programs will work. Who needs notepad, Winzip, and minesweeper in OS X anyway? Apple has the resources to create something that will allow a much larger percentage of windows apps to run natively in OS X.
Xzavier @ Mar 29th 2006 10:51AM
I have seen this coming a while ago when apple release that useless app DASHBOARD and then switching over to the x86 architecture. This is how apple is going to do it.
Dashboard will be the 1 click access to any/all WinTel base apps. When you run Dashboard aka W.I.N.E. or whatever they will call it/rename to, you will have all of those Windowz apps right at your fingertips. You wont have much of a performance hit because it is a X86 app, no ENULATION needed! If you have a dual core processor, which in the future ALL MAC's will be dual core. 1 core for Mr. OS X, the other core for Mr. x86 app! Of course you will have your SLICK Apple interface of some sort that might enhance Dashboard or replace Dashboard It's a simple plan.
I can see Steve J. now giving his interview saying how only Apple can MAKE thinks like this happen! Since we make the software and the hardware Apple can integrate the 2 at a level which no other company on the planet can do or has successfully/SOLD! In the end there will be no need for VM Ware style apps because the mass consumer market REALLY DOSEN'T WANT THAT! Not mention if they ever heard of VM Ware? I think that process might take place in 10.6 or 10.7 though. 10.5 is too soon not to mention that Apple wants to get other companies to focus on NATIVE OS X apps.
So this is how apple will have the best of almost all worlds. UNIX, OS X, Windowz, even *NIX. This is what Linux has been doing for years but has not been successful at the MASS MARKING SCALE! Some other companies have TRIED to sell Lunix PC at Wall-mart or something like that running WINE and installing some window base app. But that NEVER really took off. Apple will Start where Linux has ended/NOT FAILED just ended, or Apple can SELL IT while Linux or some other company has a hard enough time just trying to give it AWAY! Then Apple's company/shares get even bigger.
Like I said... it's a simple plan! Not to mention this is what EVERYBODY WANTS dont we? Me, you, Apple, even Microsoft to a certain degree. If not then what was all of that hoopla about trying to get windows to run on a MAC machine. Of course we want that! Most geeks might have 2 or more PCs but the average Joe only has 1 PC. Dashboard/WINE foundation/beauty will be base off of people having 1 PC. Besides, their hasnt been any real competition on a MASS MARKETING SACLE for some time now. See what happens when there is no competition, we all get lazy. http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=69890
tom acito @ Mar 29th 2006 10:56AM
How 'bout Apple just release OSX to run on a PC, so we can have a great os and reasonable priced hardware. Our iMacs keep dying (15% fairure rate?!) at my office and they sound like vacuumn cleaners. I LOVE my compaq dual core laptop for $1200. US. all I need is a good OS... ;-)
zoara @ Mar 29th 2006 10:59AM
My Super Nintendo is better than your Sega Genesis.
not_a_trendwhore @ Mar 29th 2006 11:06AM
Macbooks faster than other laptops? Thats a fucking joke, right? Apple hasnt had better hardware than the PC in YEARS, what makes you think that just after the intel switch by using the same hardware its somehow, MAGICALLY going to be faster?
Fanboys...pft.
DanMacMan @ Mar 29th 2006 11:09AM
I wonder if this has anything to do with Avi Tevanian leaving Apple? Afterall he was the brainchild of Mach/NeXT/OS X.
Bj? @ Mar 29th 2006 11:14AM
@ tom acito:
iMacs keep dying? Depends on the guy who administers these Macs... . My Macs normally run perfectly well for 1.5 years (then update to the next OS).
cal @ Mar 29th 2006 11:19AM
maybe leopard will include some kind of virtualisation that is .net specific; ie, run windows programs that use the .net runtime. MS is pretty keen on .net development, and it seems to be the way that a lot of developers are going ... so, this way osx could run future windows programs at 'native' speed (because it will always have a virtual machine anyway- whether running under windows / osx), without having to run all the old legacy stuff. from what i hear, .net is much less prone to viruses etc...
but, i suppose that this still wouldn't be any good for a bunch of software; most pro stuff, i'd assume.
JL @ Mar 29th 2006 11:20AM
LOL zoara!
Great comment!!
/snark on
and i can have both my super nintendo and sega genesis on my xbox...
:p
/snark off
If Apple goes this way, from what is being said rumor-wise
I think it's a smart move, like what comment #7 said...
You all do know what the main problem with Windows is.. and
why Vista is delayed - It's time for MS to get off of the legacy code support... that's what weighs windows down..
I'll bet even money that they have some project over there
in Redmond that is essentially a "legacy code free" version of windows....
conradzoo @ Mar 29th 2006 11:27AM
Interesting.
But what if the software companies stop making OSX versions of their apps, will OSX not become redundant?
Pinkerton @ Mar 29th 2006 11:30AM
#2's explanation sounds the most plausable given A)Mac's recent switch to the same processors as PCs, and B)The upcoming release of a more resource hungry version of windows.
The benchmarks will no longer be comparing Motorola to Intel, but Mac to PC/Microsoft. The Mac adverts claiming victory will follow.
Ed Shull @ Mar 29th 2006 11:31AM
Apple hardware is expensive and not very good? I agree that it's expensive, and that you get what you pay for. But, honestly, if Apple does make this move, Mac's will become the high end version of the PC. People will chose the Mac because the hardware is great, and OS X is sold and secure.
Maxwell @ Mar 29th 2006 11:33AM
My opinion is that if Apple is trying to get developers to program natively on OS X it gives them the necessary drive to do so. Imagine, you're a Windows user because you have to be, all your work/familiarity is for windows. But what if you could try something new and inside that new OS you could use all your old apps as if they were already running on the new one.
This is the transition Apple are looking for, that will stop people saying, I CANT BECAUSE OF (certain app name here) THAT I USE FOR WORK/PLAY etc. Take that last bit away, I can't buy a mac because.... ???
The only reason to stick with MS/Windows/PC is if you actually prefer boring old grey boxes, no imagination, spyware, program lockups, viruses etc etc etc.
I've wanted a MAC forever but I'm too accustom to my applications (to be honest it's a Battlefield 2 thing) and Macs haven't been that amazing for long. But now there's a real reason to switch, if 10.5 CAN run apps natively (maybe even install Windows apps off the same disc etc etc) then we may see developers shift over to mac saying "What's the point developing for Windows when we can get a performance gain doing it in Mac which everyone is using anyway?"
I can't wait to see how this pans out...
choey @ Mar 29th 2006 11:39AM
Why isn't it better to write softwares in an universal platform? One that can run on anything intel-based. Wouldn't that make more sense for software makers? A la Java? Ok, maybe not Java. But, you get the idea.
Rob @ Mar 29th 2006 11:53AM
I'm still hung up on your comments, Todd... Either you don't understand the article, or I don't understand your sense of humor (or maybe you simply aren't good at being sarcastic). Please explain the meaning behind the smart ass comment that went over our heads (as you put it)...
TexRob @ Mar 29th 2006 12:01PM
Not_a_trendwhore, sounds like you are just that, just that you are stuck on the old school trend of blindly hating Macs.
You said:
"19. Macbooks faster than other laptops? Thats a fucking joke, right? Apple hasnt had better hardware than the PC in YEARS, what makes you think that just after the intel switch by using the same hardware its somehow, MAGICALLY going to be faster?
Fanboys...pft."
What part of this is a conspiracy?
http://gearlog.com/blogs/gearlog/archive/2006/03/21/8212.aspx
idiot.
Don @ Mar 29th 2006 1:03PM
Dvorak prediction is one step closer to reality, Jobs is going to dump OSX for Windows, Welcome to the dark side Apple fan boys. Muwahahahahaha!!
Todd @ Mar 29th 2006 1:17PM
well Rob, I like a lot of people who frequent this site are getting tired of the Apple bias comments in the posts. The "Guys" who I mentioned are the opinionated individuals who scream at everything MS and glow every time Apple releases a larger HD in a ipod.
Sorry for not having a full cup o' Joe before I posted.
ThePete @ Mar 29th 2006 1:27PM
Sheesh these comments are funny.
I don't get any Windows user who has tried OSX and hasn't fallen in love with it. I'm NOT a Mac fanboy--I don't have an Apple sticker on my vehicle of choice or go around shooting Apple commercials that I edit on iMovie and then post to my .Mac account--I tried OSX out of curiosity and frustration (with XP sucking so hard) and found OSX to have its flaws but to be wholely (sp?) more stable and worth the extra money. I've also found the hardware (I've now owned an iBook and PowerBook over the past 3 years) to run faster and longer than I've ever had a PC run and I've built my own PCs.
My guess is that you Mac-haters haven't tried OSX for any real length of time or are just so used to being abused that you think you deserve it. ;)
KIDDING. Jeez, relax.
As for Todd's "humor" I totally feel the same way--my reaction to the line "Notable curmudgeon John Dvorak raised hackles last month when he suggested that an Intel-powered Apple would dump OS X and switch to Windows." was laughter.
Personally, I don't care why Apple does anything, I've got an older PowerBook and I'm done upgrading crap on it. I've had it for going on 2 years and it's a fricken workhorse. The only time I miss my PC is when I'm designing websites and need to test them in that crappy browser, IE.
DCFYI @ Mar 29th 2006 2:00PM
I checked with BAPCO and they know nothing of a deal with apple. A further review of the BAPCO website shows that apple is not a member. http://www.bapco.com/about.html
Tim Quernemoen @ Mar 29th 2006 2:16PM
Nobody knows what Apple will actually do. But if they do somehow get Windows apps running on OSX or even get Windows to run inside OSX they would gain mass market share. If that were to happen, Windows users would actually have a real choice to make. To get all that Apple has to offer plus be able to use your well known and needed Windows apps could get people to move to Macs in mass. I'm not saying 50% or over market share, but it would at least be competetive.
Joel Santo Domingo @ Mar 29th 2006 2:40PM
To #34:
Not to burst your bubble, but Ziff Davis Media belongs to BAPCo. I got the information from BAPCo communications, and I've personally confirmed with a BAPCo spokesperson that Apple Computer has in fact joined BAPCo. He also confirmed that Apple's membership could be released as public knowledge.
I'd like to chime in on the debate and note that many companies and government agencies require minimum scores on the BAPCo tests (for example a 4 hour minimum battery life score on MobileMark) for approval on purchase orders. It is possible Apple is joining BAPCo to help support current and future business sales.
I also agree that it would be nice to get indepenently verified performance scores on Macintosh computers aside from the esoteric SPECint and SPECbase benchmarks. Joining BAPCo could be a way shape future performance benchmark testing and an outlet to verify Apple's performance claims.
-Joel Santo Domingo
PC Magazine, Gearlog
bryan christmas @ Mar 29th 2006 4:19PM
I agree that this is exciting news, and I don't doubt that apple could be planning to include support for windoze apps. It would probably be the last key feature they need to skyrocket to equal footing in market share. But has anyone stopped to think that its more likely that BAPCo is the one switching something? Now that OS X is running on intel, maybe benchmarking it wouldn't be as difficult with the resources BAPCo already has in place. I mean the hardware is practically identical now....
anon @ Mar 29th 2006 5:11PM
1) Only the last sentence in the article is viable. How much did Dvorak pay to get someone Perton to write an article where it looks his previous nonesense was somehow correct.
2) Apple will not get Windows running on OSX, they will get Windows programs to run natively WITHOUT Windows. Why? Because one of the reasons companies don't convert to Mac is because they want their proprietary Win32 API apps to run. This is theorectically possible with Redbox.
3) Apples do a lot more than "word processing and graphical editing," Gil.
4) Apple isn't getting rid of their OS.
5) Apple isn't trying to get Windows on a Mac!!!
6) APPLE ISN'T TRYING TO GET WINDOWS TO RUN ON A MAC!!!!! (repeated to hopefully get it through thick skulls)
7) Apple wants to prove that they have a superior OS. The move to Intel, plus Win32 apps running natively on OSX for comparison will surely show who is the master. Sho Nuff!
8) Did I meantion that Apple WILL NOT be running WIndows within OSX.
apple sucks Leo @ Mar 29th 2006 5:32PM
Mac users must TRUST Stevie Jobs-Pod with their TPM trusted platform module.Buy an overpriced commodity PC box and only run what he wants you to run. The "other" side gets choice such as the ability to use AMD chips which in many cases are proven faster. Also,more importantly is the fact that we can build our own with better performance than any Mac.Oh..also we can dual-boot with Linux. Sorry Stevie,I don`t need your Mac.
robert weisberg @ Mar 29th 2006 7:03PM
If Apple Can get all or most windows programs to run under the mac os, the sky is the limit for Apple. I reallyt hink they could really add some market share. Of course pricing always seems to be an issue as Apple is at the higher end of pc prices but they could get a huge boost from this. I am a PC user by the way...
Rob
Tim @ Mar 29th 2006 7:25PM
Please oh please don't go all Palm on us now Apple...
John Doe. @ Mar 29th 2006 8:04PM
"Gee a smart ass comment goes righ over some people's heads, doesn't it. "
Todd there is a fine line to being a smartass and a dumbass. You pranced like a fairy over said line.
You didn't say anything ironic, cute, witty, cool, or anything else other then stupid.
JP @ Mar 30th 2006 12:48AM
As usual, an article about OSs and Platforms comes up and we get the common irritations.
The most annoying, Windows Fan-boys, dissing those they believe to be Mac Fan-boys. These repugnant morons start flame wars over their own stupidity and ignorance. (here's a tip, if this comment makes you think I am a windows hating mac lover without a clue, this is about you buddy.)
Next are the Mac Snobs. The mixture of fact, misinformation and snobbery gives all users a bad name, and just adds to the confusion because most statements are not backed up properly.
And our final group I am calling the "do it yourselfers." These are mostly gamers and modders who are unwilling to even give a mac a try due to the lack of upgradeability (I must confess this used to be me) and the uninformed linux user who is unaware that there had been a build for the mac for the last several processor generations ( we are talking like mac6800 here).
So I beg, PLEASE people, if you are going to post have at least HALF A CLUE and submit to inform and question resulting in dialogue, not to insult and demean others. (platform bigotry is a form of racism if you take the laws to there logical extremes)
Zathras @ Mar 30th 2006 2:48AM
macosxrumors has a source that says Apple is working on software code-named 'Chameleon' that will allow Windows apps to run in Leopard...
Ronan @ Mar 30th 2006 7:20AM
I can't shake the feeling that people have got this wrong. Apple already produce great software for Windows. iTunes, Quicktime, Bonjour, Airport network management are all installed on my computer. I've heard plenty of rumours that Apple have developed tech that would allow them to port iLife, FC etc. to Windows very easily. In theory this would be the same for any Xcode apps. We all know that developers prefer to code for one platform and that if they could write for Windows and easily port to Mac they wouldn't bother to develop for the Mac specifically. Wouldn't it make more sense for Apple to get people to develop through Xcode and make it easier for them to run on Windows. Then if they worked on Apple they could easily release on both platforms but not if they continued to develop on Windows. This could have the effect of switching the effort within companies like Adobe to developing on Xcode because it would be cheaper.
Longer term it could mean that software like AutoCAD could be developed for OSX and immediately ported to Windows. There's no delay between the releases of versions of iTunes and the programs look surprisingly similar on both platforms.
ruchador @ Mar 30th 2006 7:35AM
As much as I'd like to "OMGWTFLOLBBQ" at this article, I'm going to have to assume that Apple's just benchmarking Apple Computers, running Apple Software. The reason why BAPco wasn't benchmarking anything but Windows PCs before now seems quite likely to be the fact that Apple wasn't a member until now. I mean, the article does say that, no? Sometimes Ockham's Razor ought to apply to our thought processes when reading articles such as these, rather than being sensitive over what others think about our electronics purchasing decisions.
For those interested, I am typing this on an Intel based iMac, which sits next to my pc. And anybody creaming themselves over running a Windows app of any magnitude of complexity whatsoever on this machine ought to try running a few non-Universal Mac applications on one of these glossy white devices - or, dare I say it, ask Rosetta to run TWO power pc apps simultaneously - and tell me how amped they are about it then. Apple hasn't even gotten the majority of third party Mac software to run smoothly on their machines yet; do you really think Windows applications are even a priority right now?
I'm sorry, I must be spoiling your fun; I had a temporary memory lapse, and forgot how much people like to just plain argue. Please, don't mind me - flame on.
Brightstar @ Mar 30th 2006 8:31AM
One reason, and one reason only why Apple would do this, THEY WANT GAMERS.
Matthew @ Mar 30th 2006 9:21AM
How on Earth is this similar to what Dvorak was saying?
Weren't NeXT doing something like this, so it's not so surprising it's just another thing Apple has incorporated from NeXTstep,